SPOILER ALERT: The story includes details about Episode 8 of HBO’s The Last Of Us.
In the penultimate episode of HBO’s record-smashing horror-drama The Last of Us, Ellie’s (Bella Ramsey) last hope for survival is put to a harrowing test. Still reeling from Joel’s (Pedro Pascal) grave injury that has left him incapacitated for weeks, Ellie struggles to find essentials and protect their hideout. While scavenging for food, she encounters a group of survivors led by a devout man named David (Scott Shepherd), who offers a welcoming community, supplies and protection. Ellie must then decide if David’s offer is genuine or too good to be true.
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In keeping with the show’s ability to expand upon the video game’s source material, we meet an all-new character named James, a member of David’s clan, played by prolific voice actor Troy Baker, who originated the role of Joel Miller himself.
Here, Baker breaks down the nuance of his character’s psyche, working with Bella Ramsey and the cultural relevance of The Last of Us.
DEADLINE: This year marks the 10th anniversary of The Last of Us video game, along with the third anniversary of the game sequel. Considering that you’ve originated the role of Joel, inarguably one of the most iconic characters in video game history, how has it been stepping back into this world for you?
TROY BAKER: I feel like I’ve never left. And I kind of knew that was going to be the case the second that I “met” him. Anthony Hopkins tells this beautiful story when he first read the script for Silence of the Lambs. He got to about page 10 and put it down because he was afraid that he wouldn’t get the role, and I’ve felt that before. As an actor, whenever you get an opportunity for an audition or a meeting, you want to get it because the exigencies of the artist’s situation are always financial, and you just want to get a job. But some roles come across your path that just feel inherently special. And that was this, I had always been a fan of Naughty Dog and what they had done, especially with the Uncharted series, so the opportunity to be a part of a new thing was very appealing.
I got inside of Joel and discovered what I felt was a secret that nobody else knew. I’ve been a part of this world for over a decade. And I’ve seen not only the game be made but also be well-received. You never know if [a project] will be as good as you’re hoping for it to be, but it was, and then it gets out in the world, and it just blows up and becomes this phenomenon. It resonates with people in a new way that we hadn’t seen with games before. And then eight years after that, all of a sudden for [Neil Druckmann] to be like, “We’re going to do a show,” it’s just so surreal. Anytime they let me do anything, I feel lucky. If I get a chair at the table, I’m grateful.
But when Neil and Craig came to me with this role, they were like, “How would you feel about playing James?” And I went, “Oh my God. Thank you, guys, so much. Who is James?” [Laughs]. But the beauty of this story is that we get to take some characters that may have been overlooked and zoom in and expand their roles. This is all about enriching the story, not replacing it. So, for me to play James in this is like, “Yeah, this is a unique opportunity for me to see this world through a whole new set of eyes.”
DEADLIINE: Let’s get into that. How did this original role come about? Did Neil and Craig message you beforehand and ask if you wanted to play a lowkey villain? And when you were offered this part, what went through your mind?
BAKER: It wasn’t even that. Neil was coy about this potential role. He was like, “So, there’s a character that we have in mind for you, if you’re interested. If you don’t feel interested, it’s totally fine.” And I’m like, “Dude, if there’s anything for me….” Look, I thought I was going to be a clicker. So, this is an upgrade. [Laughs]. I was so happy. And then, when reading the script for James, I was like, “OK, there’s a good challenge.”
I love playing a villain to show you he’s not the villain. Because if I can make you like him for just a second, that makes you hate him even more when I need you to. So, I love that dance; it’s very appealing to me. So, when it came to approaching James, I asked, “How can we make him not a henchman? How can we make him not just this David’s ‘Thug A,’ and make it so that he has some actual stake in the story?” And for me, it’s all about understanding that every character we meet throughout this story is somehow a reflection of Joel and or Ellie.
David [is a reflection of Joel. It is the wrong side of the coin because here’s someone who is looking out for those that he cares about and is willing to do whatever it takes to do that. So is Joel. Maria [Rutina Wesley] is one of my favorite counterpoints to Joel because you see a parent who lost her son within days of Joel losing Sarah [Nico Parker]. And what does she look like 20 years on? She still is a mother. She’s still cutting Ellie’s hair, and she did not abandon and abdicate her role as a parent. Look at Bill and how he’s different from Joel and what he can teach Joel. So, all these characters somehow serve as a counterpoint. So, to me, James was a good guy, and this world has been hard on him too. And if you look at these people, they arrived here to what they thought would be the promised land, and they had one hard winter, which turned them into the worst versions of themselves. And I think this episode is a good lesson to learn that we are all one bad day away from being, at least by some degree, the worst version of ourselves.
DEADLINE: Something unique in your portrayal of James here is that, though he belongs to David’s cult and listens to his overt zealot ideations, there’s still uncertainty about his loyalty. It seems that James does still have the remnants of a moral center. How much of that was intentional in your performance to try and create this nuanced dynamic?
BAKER: For me, I definitely thought, “If he’s absent of a moral center, then he’s just not interesting. He’s just boring,” and the thing that I realize is that what James wants more than anything is to be the right hand of David. Not because he admires him or respects him but because he understands who he is. David is the Devil, and I definitely want to be on the right side of the Devil than the wrong side. So that’s where James is positioning himself, and along comes this girl who can completely usurp that position, and that’s what James clocks in David. In Ellie, David sees an equal, and that’s what he wants. And James knows that’s what he’ll never be.
There’s the line, “You have a violent heart,” which James doesn’t have. Because he’ll shoot the horse, he’ll stop the girl, but when it comes to leveling a weapon at a terrified 14-year-old girl lying down in the snow, James choked, and someone had to prod him, but he still wouldn’t [commit the violent act]. And that’s not because he’s afraid of getting in trouble with David; it’s because, at the end of the day, he still has a moral center.
I think the thing James recognizes is that we’ve seen throughout history how people like David have [used religion] to rule and oppress people. And this is not meant to be a disparaging remark against anybody with a sense of faith, as I think having hope and belief in something is one of the most powerful things we have. When you strip people of all the tangible things like food, shelter, and warmth, the only things left are the intangible things like hope, faith and belief, and those are the three weapons David uses against these people. So, when you see James’ chipping away at this decision that David is making of bringing this girl into the fold, those are the things that he argues, “Well, maybe it’s God’s will,” but then ultimately comes down as like, “She’s just another mouth to feed.” He appeals to David’s ego and tricks, but I don’t think James believes this for a second. His mentality is more like, “Whatever will get us through the winter, whatever will get us to our true promised land, that’s what I’m willing to do.”
DEADLINE: There are so many intense scenes in this episode, but more specifically, I’m thinking about Ellie’s jail cell interrogation, where David essentially decides to kill her for being so stubborn, and James steps in to help. Can you talk to me about working with Bella Ramsey in that moment?
BAKER: Here is something that people will never see that just exists for my own benefit, and I both love that and hate it because they’re so talented; it’s scary. So, Ellie is in this cage, and this is a scene that ended up getting cut because we didn’t need it. David is having this conversation with Ellie, and then he gets interrupted by my character. James comes in and asks, “Can I have a minute?” And David’s like, “Yeah.” So, David leaves, and in this scene, not scripted at all, I just give [fierce] dog eyes to Ellie. And every [take], it became this war without words to see who would win this brief spar. And every time, Ellie wins. I am selfishly excited for people to see me in this episode, but I think what I’m most excited to see is this episode where Bella really gets to flex and show you exactly what Bella Ramsey is capable of, and it is terrifying. [Laughs].
DEADLINE: Now that the show is nearing the end, has anything surprised you about how people are reacting to the series so far?
Everything has been surprising because none of this has been expected. It was hoped for, and there was a desire for this thing to find a new audience. Neil really helped me with that because I was against the idea of the show. I was like, “Why not just leave it as a game?” And Neil goes, “Because I believe this story is good enough to get out to people who will never pick up a controller, and we need to bring this story to them.” And just seeing the amount of dedication, skill, and perseverance that both Neil and Craig [Mazin], the producers, and the crew have shown pay off in fan art, social media posts, and tears have been incredible. Seeing this show’s resonance with people has been the most surprising thing. Because if you get to do it once, man, that’s a miracle. And then to be able to do this successful thing twice, we’ve just continually been climbing mountains, and the fact that we’re now sitting here at the top of this new one is truly a miracle.
The Last of Us airs every Sunday on HBO.
[This interview has been edited for length and clarity]
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